When I first started this blog in about 2006 or 2005, can't quite recall, the name Shekinah Fellowship in a Google search brought up zero results. Zero.
If anything that Brant Baker did had a lasting effect on society, it would certainly be introducing the name Shekinah Fellowship to Christendom.
My story, sort of.
No one showed up and and the comments section remained largely empty on this blog except for the spammers with their penny stocks and Viagra pitches etc.
What is Shekinah?
Today Google says there are 281,000 Shekinah Fellowship results when searching for that name on the net. That is truly impressive don't you think?
The first site to appear with a slight mention of Shekinah Fellowships "choir" was Susan Dixon's website. I got excited about that and contacted her, she was at least acknowledging the existence of Shekinah Fellowships Choir.. Back in those days it was still taboo to even mention Brant Baker or Lonnie Frisbee's name. Bless Susan for being the first person bold enough to stand up against the current and take a stand.
Susan seemed ambivalent and had nothing much to share about Shekinah Fellowship or Brant Baker when I emailed her. Jim Ewing contacted her with much the same results.
Today she is not ashamed to acknowledge Brant Baker or Shekinah Fellowship. I would like to think that this blog had played a part in the open dialog about these things to where people are now free to mention Shekinah Fellowship or Brant Baker. I wanted to restore them to the historical public record and have achieved my goal in a sense.
Hannelore
(Lori W) showed up. Calvin showed up. And I started to receive emails from around the world. I started getting around 200 page views per day back then. I guess because i was breaking new ground in outing the something that others were trying to bury away and forget about, I don't really know.
Today I only get about 20 page view hits on average per day. We have now become old news and now everyone knows about Shekinah Fellowship and Brant Baker.
Brant Baker was a fallen man with deep issues who over came self condemnation and did the best he could to point the way to Jesus Christ.
What do I think happened to Shekinah Fellowship?
Here is one story with a few errors that need correcting but a good overview of sorts. And here is a more accurate story. But the behind the scenes story has not been publicly told. I have heard from a few of the men who were involved with Brant Baker and their accounts. They all say that even though Brant had a double life he still had a passion for Jesus Christ and the things of God that was very inspirational. Most of them to this day still are walking with God because of Brant's influence on them. There was something unique about Brant that drew people to Christ.
Welcome to my place! It's great to have you here! AN INTERESTING WEB DESTINATION
Saturday, June 29, 2013
Friday, June 28, 2013
To Hear God
I once
visited a man in San Diego CA in 1971 who was what I would call a
'weeping prophet.' He got tears every time he spoke of Jesus. This gentle
man was a senior who loved the Lord and served Him by sharing the life
of God through Jesus Christ with others. I never forgot his secret that
he shared with us teenagers about exercising your spirituality.
His name was Royal Cronquis, considered to be a prophet, a teacher of prophets by many. He is no longer alive on earth. He was a member of the "Walk", apostle John Robert Stevens movement.
He
would put an AM radio on a station on one side of a room and another AM
radio on a different station on the other side of the same room. Then
he would sit in the middle of this confusion and try to practice the
presence of God.
.
He
told us that at first the radios were hard to 'tune~out' and he could
not be aware of God's presence at all. But after days and days of this
exercise he slowly developed an ability to draw near to God inspite of
the distractions. Which of course made him very sensitive to the Holy
Spirit no matter what was going on around him.
.
The
ability to draw near to God in every situation and circumstance comes
with practice. If we do not practice this willingly then God will bring
us into the class room of practice Himself. This next post goes into
more detail of what this is all about...
David
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.
Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
----------------------------------
Frangipane was connected to the Church of The Living Word for about eight years. This movement was informally called "The Walk." A lot of what Fransis teaches is actually from the influence of the apostle John Robert Stevens and his teachings. Here is a sample of Frangipane's teaching that reflects some of John's excellent insight:
Expect to See God's Glory!
Light Shines in the Darkness.
It is not enough to know God exists. If we will live in the awareness of the heavenly, we must be freed from the boundaries of the earthly. To awaken faith, the Holy Spirit will take us through times when the presence of God cannot be clearly discerned. The Lord's goal during these times is to bring to maturity our spiritual senses.
Therefore, do not accept that God has permanently hidden Himself from you, though during trials it may seem so. He is teaching us to see in the dark and to hear in the silence. He is making Himself known to our inner man so that, regardless of outer circumstances, we can continually be led by His Spirit.
To see God, beloved, it is imperative that our vision become spiritual and not just sensory. To hear God, we must learn to tune out the clamor of our fears and earthly desires. The outcome of this inner spiritual working is an increasing perception that nothing is impossible for God. The time of darkness, though it comes as an enemy, actually compels us to seek God more earnestly; we learn to even more revere God's light. Never mistake temporary darkness for permanent blindness, for today's training is the very process that opens us to see God's glory. Ultimately, we will discover the truth of what Isaiah wrote, that "the whole earth is full of [God's] glory"
(Isa. 6:3).
.
Lord, Open Our Eyes!
Did not Moses endure "as seeing him who is invisible" (Heb. 11:27 KJV)? Indeed, the Bible was written by individuals who actually beheld the glory of God. To see the glory of God is our call as well. Our spiritual vision is not an imaginary device of the mind, but that which comes from the living union of the Holy Spirit with our hearts. Did not our Lord promise that the "pure in heart . . . shall see God" (Matt. 5:8)? And is it not reasonable to expect that, if Christ truly dwells within us, we ought to perceive life with unveiled minds? Just as it is written,
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18).
Yes, if we remove the veils of sin, shame and self-absorption, if we persist in seeking God, staying focused upon His Spirit and Word, we should expect to see the glory of the Lord. Such open perception is biblical and should be pursued! Yet there are those who say access to greater spiritual realities is a false hope and a heresy. I say, beware of the leaven of the unbelieving Christian. For such people would have you accept religion without vision as though to see God's glory was sin.
Consider how many in the Bible actually saw the glory of the Lord: Abraham saw the Christ's glory while he was in Mesopotamia. Isaiah beheld Him in the year King Uzziah died. Ezekiel fell before the Living One by the river Chebar. David, Habakkuk, Solomon, and Zechariah all saw the glory of the Lord (Acts 7:2; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 3:23; 2 Sam. 6:2; Hab. 3:3; 2 Chron. 7:1; Zech. 1:8). Moses beheld Him, then Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy Hebrew elders as well. Exodus tells us these men actually "saw the God of Israel." The Bible describes this incredible scene, saying that "under [God's] feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself " (Exod. 24:10). The concluding thought is staggering; it reads, "And they saw God, and they ate and drank" (Exod. 24:11).
Think of it: They beheld God! Could anything be more wonderful? Is there not a jealousy within you for that experience --- to actually gaze upon the God of Israel?
Be assured, to behold the Lord's glory is not only scriptural but typical, especially during the pivotal decades between ages (which is where we are today). The fact is, over six million Israelites saw God's glory on Mount Sinai. Young men, old women, and little children --- people of every age and physical condition --- all saw "the glory of the Lord [as it] rested on Mount Sinai." These same people actually "heard the voice of God" speaking to them (Deut. 4:33)!
Yet, that unveiling of glory did not stop at Sinai. The entire Hebrew nation followed a cloud of glory by day and was illuminated by a blazing pillar of fire-like glory at night. This happened not just once or twice but every day for forty years! How much more shall the Lord of glory manifest Himself to us at the end of the age?
If you are a God-seeker, except for times of darkness when the Spirit refines your spiritual senses, you should expect to see the glory of God! There should be an anticipation that, any day now --- as you enter your prayer room or go for a walk, or in a dream --- the Spirit of God is going to appear to you in some marvelous and life-changing way.
http://www.inchristsimage.org/
Did not Moses endure "as seeing him who is invisible" (Heb. 11:27 KJV)? Indeed, the Bible was written by individuals who actually beheld the glory of God. To see the glory of God is our call as well. Our spiritual vision is not an imaginary device of the mind, but that which comes from the living union of the Holy Spirit with our hearts. Did not our Lord promise that the "pure in heart . . . shall see God" (Matt. 5:8)? And is it not reasonable to expect that, if Christ truly dwells within us, we ought to perceive life with unveiled minds? Just as it is written,
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18).
Yes, if we remove the veils of sin, shame and self-absorption, if we persist in seeking God, staying focused upon His Spirit and Word, we should expect to see the glory of the Lord. Such open perception is biblical and should be pursued! Yet there are those who say access to greater spiritual realities is a false hope and a heresy. I say, beware of the leaven of the unbelieving Christian. For such people would have you accept religion without vision as though to see God's glory was sin.
Consider how many in the Bible actually saw the glory of the Lord: Abraham saw the Christ's glory while he was in Mesopotamia. Isaiah beheld Him in the year King Uzziah died. Ezekiel fell before the Living One by the river Chebar. David, Habakkuk, Solomon, and Zechariah all saw the glory of the Lord (Acts 7:2; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 3:23; 2 Sam. 6:2; Hab. 3:3; 2 Chron. 7:1; Zech. 1:8). Moses beheld Him, then Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy Hebrew elders as well. Exodus tells us these men actually "saw the God of Israel." The Bible describes this incredible scene, saying that "under [God's] feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself " (Exod. 24:10). The concluding thought is staggering; it reads, "And they saw God, and they ate and drank" (Exod. 24:11).
Think of it: They beheld God! Could anything be more wonderful? Is there not a jealousy within you for that experience --- to actually gaze upon the God of Israel?
Be assured, to behold the Lord's glory is not only scriptural but typical, especially during the pivotal decades between ages (which is where we are today). The fact is, over six million Israelites saw God's glory on Mount Sinai. Young men, old women, and little children --- people of every age and physical condition --- all saw "the glory of the Lord [as it] rested on Mount Sinai." These same people actually "heard the voice of God" speaking to them (Deut. 4:33)!
Yet, that unveiling of glory did not stop at Sinai. The entire Hebrew nation followed a cloud of glory by day and was illuminated by a blazing pillar of fire-like glory at night. This happened not just once or twice but every day for forty years! How much more shall the Lord of glory manifest Himself to us at the end of the age?
If you are a God-seeker, except for times of darkness when the Spirit refines your spiritual senses, you should expect to see the glory of God! There should be an anticipation that, any day now --- as you enter your prayer room or go for a walk, or in a dream --- the Spirit of God is going to appear to you in some marvelous and life-changing way.
http://www.inchristsimage.org/
I Know Of A School Of Ministry That Ordained Two Women By Coercion. The School Did Not Want Legal Problems So Were Forced To Ordain The Women. I Believe That The School Had A Wrong Concept Of Women In Ministry.
I Believe In Women
Are Women In Ministry In The Bible?
As you know, the Greek word APOSTOLOS translated apostle means "one sent forth," a sent one.
A true apostle is always "one with a commission" - not one who merely goes, but one who is sent.
A missionary who is really called of God and sent by the Holy Ghost is an apostle.
What marks do we look for in an apostle today?
1. Outstanding spiritual gifts.
2. Deep personal experience.
3. Power and ability to establish churches.
4. Able to provide adequate spiritual leadership.
If a woman meets this list then what are we to think of her.
Exodus 15:24: Miriam, the daughter of Aaron was a prophet and one of the triad of leaders of Israel during the Exodus from Egypt.
Judges 4 & 5: Deborah, a prophet-judge, headed the army of ancient Israel.
2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22 Huldah, a prophet, verified the authenticity of the "Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses" - the Book of Deuteronomy. She triggered a religious renewal.
Acts 9:36 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple of Jesus by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick, had died; St. Peter brought her back to life.
Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets. Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.
Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. The Greek word which describes her function is "diakonos" which means literally "official servant."
As you know, the Greek word APOSTOLOS translated apostle means "one sent forth," a sent one.
A true apostle is always "one with a commission" - not one who merely goes, but one who is sent.
A missionary who is really called of God and sent by the Holy Ghost is an apostle.
What marks do we look for in an apostle today?
1. Outstanding spiritual gifts.
2. Deep personal experience.
3. Power and ability to establish churches.
4. Able to provide adequate spiritual leadership.
If a woman meets this list then what are we to think of her.
Exodus 15:24: Miriam, the daughter of Aaron was a prophet and one of the triad of leaders of Israel during the Exodus from Egypt.
Judges 4 & 5: Deborah, a prophet-judge, headed the army of ancient Israel.
2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22 Huldah, a prophet, verified the authenticity of the "Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses" - the Book of Deuteronomy. She triggered a religious renewal.
Acts 9:36 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple of Jesus by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick, had died; St. Peter brought her back to life.
Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets. Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.
Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. The Greek word which describes her function is "diakonos" which means literally "official servant."
She
is the only deacon in the Bible to be identified by name. Some
translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by
mistranslating the Greek as a simple "servant" or "helper". Paul later
refers to Phoebe as a woman, calling her "our sister." This prevented
later church leaders from hiding her gender as they did with Junia in
Romans 16:7 below - by changing her name and implying that she was a
man.
Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."
Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."
It is
worth noting that Paul refers to Priscilla and her husband as "Priscilla
and Aquila" in this passage and as "Aquila and Priscilla" in 1
Corinthians 16:19. It would appear that the order is not important to
Paul. As in Galatians 3:28, he apparently believed that there is no
distinction among those who have been baptized into Christ between male
and female.
Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) Every Greek and Latin church Father until Giles of Rome (circa 1000 CE) acknowledged that Junia was a woman. 2,3 After that time, various writers and translators of the Bible resorted to deceptions in order to suppress her gender. For example:
Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) Every Greek and Latin church Father until Giles of Rome (circa 1000 CE) acknowledged that Junia was a woman. 2,3 After that time, various writers and translators of the Bible resorted to deceptions in order to suppress her gender. For example:
The Amplified Bible translates this passage as "They are men held in high esteem among the apostles" The Revised Standard Version shows it as "they are men of note among the apostles". The reference to them both being men does not appear in the original Greek text. The word "men" was simply inserted by the translators, apparently because the translators' minds recoiled from the concept of a female apostle.
Many translations, including the Amplified Bible, Rheims New Testament, New American Standard Bible, and the New International Version simply picked the letter "s" out of thin air, and converted the original "Junia" (a woman's name) into "Junias" (a man's). Again, it was probably inconceivable to the translators that Paul would recognize a woman as an apostle.
There are many Gospels and other early Christian writings that never made it into the official canon. Some shed light of the role of women in various early Christian groups:
The Christian Gnostic tradition represented one of the three main forms of early Christianity - the others being Jewish Christianity and Pauline Christianity. Gnostic texts show that women held senior roles as teachers, prophets and missionaries. They conducted rituals such as baptism and the Eucharist. They performed exorcisms.
The Gospel of Philip, was widely used among early Christian congregations. It portrayed Mary Magdalene as the companion of Jesus, in a position of very high authority within the early Christian movement.
The Gospel of Mary described Mary Magdalene as a leader of Jesus' disciples. She delivering a passionate sermon to the disciples after his resurrection. This raised their spirits and inspired them to evangelize the known world.
Philoumene, a woman, headed a Christian theological school in Rome during the second century CE.
...Paul mentioned 40 names in his letters...and talked about the big missionary enterprise of which there are dozens of people or participants... Of those 40 people, 16 are women. That's a considerable proportion of women involved in the Pauline missionary effort." Helmut Koestler 4
...it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church." Pope Paul VI 8
Fact be told...women are living souls just the same as men...and God looks at the heart, not the sex genes.
As in so many religious beliefs, we see a major split between conservative and liberal Christians concerning female ordination:
Many conservative Christian denominations allow only men to be ordained. A major support for this decision is Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in which the author did "not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Further, 1 Timothy 3:2 specifies that overseers and deacons must be men. Finally, 1 Corinthians 14:34b-35 states that women must be silent and in submission when in church. If they want to clarify some theological point, they should wait and approach their husband at home.
Any
of these statements would totally preclude women becoming ministers or
pastors. Much of their opposition to equal treatment of women is derived
from their concept of the inerrancy of the official canon of the Bible.
Most believe that such books as Timothy and Titus were written by Paul
prior to his death circa 65 CE.
Many liberal theologians note that:
In the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), women's roles were highly restricted; they rarely held positions of power; they were often considered as property by their "owners" -- their fathers and husbands.
Jesus violated 1st century customs in Palestine by generally treating men and women as equals. Of the dozen or so individuals who made up Jesus' inner circle, about half were women.
Paul appears to have also treated women in the early Christian movement as equals, as co-workers, and as deserving of positions of authority, including the ministry.
An equally valid translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is "I do not permit a wife to teach or to have authority over her husband..."
Many liberal theologians note that:
In the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), women's roles were highly restricted; they rarely held positions of power; they were often considered as property by their "owners" -- their fathers and husbands.
Jesus violated 1st century customs in Palestine by generally treating men and women as equals. Of the dozen or so individuals who made up Jesus' inner circle, about half were women.
Paul appears to have also treated women in the early Christian movement as equals, as co-workers, and as deserving of positions of authority, including the ministry.
An equally valid translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is "I do not permit a wife to teach or to have authority over her husband..."
Through
the use of Biblical criticism, liberal theologians have dated the books
1 Timothy and Titus to 100 to 150 CE. That is perhaps a half century
after Paul's death. 1 Timothy 1:1, and Titus 1:1 declare that Paul was
their author. Religious liberals consider the books to be clearly
pseudonymous (written under an assumed name). The true author is
unknown. Some theologians theorize that the books might have been
written partly to counteract Paul's acceptance of women as equals, and
to justify the church's gradual slide into a male-dominated institution.
Liberals would argue that the policies of Jesus and Paul in the area of gender equality are a higher standard than the oppression of women which is expressed in the Hebrew Scriptures and in some of the pseudonymous epistles. They believe that the present North American secular standard should be followed with respect to female ordination. They would prefer to abandon the restrictions on women that were implemented within Christendom, starting in the late 1st century CE.
Until the early years of the 20th century, very few Christian faith groups allowed women to be ordained. Since then, most of the liberal denominations have accepted female ministers and pastors. Mainline denominations followed. Very conservative denominations generally do not. The historical trend appears obvious - it may be just a matter of time before almost all denominations will remove their gender barrier, and finally match the rest of society.
Acts 9:36: Paul refers to a woman (Tabitha in Aramaic, Dorcas in Greek, Gazelle in English) as a disciple.
Acts 18:24-26 describes how Priscilla, a woman, and Aquila, her husband, both acted in the role of an official pastor to a man from Alexandria, called Apollos. Various translations of the Bible imply that they taught him in the synagogue (Amplified Bible, King James Version, Rheims, New American Standard, New American, New Revised Standard). However, the New International Version has an unusual translation of this passage. The NIV states that the teaching occurred in Priscilla's and Aquila's home.
Romans 16:1: This chapter is apparently unrelated to chapter 15 and to the rest of the book. It appears to be an independent note that has been attached to the epistle to the Romans. It starts with a letter of recommendation which introduces Phoebe to a group of people associated with the church at Corinth. Paul refers to her as a "deacon in the sense of a preacher, a minister, because Paul uses the same word for himself. He calls himself, in a number of instances, a deacon of the new covenant in 2 Corinthians." 4 It is often translated "deaconess" or "servant" or "helper" in English translations - perhaps in order to disguise her true status. The same Greek word appears in Ephesians 6:21 where it refers to a male and is normally translated "minister." It also appears in 2 Corinthians where Paul used the word to refer to himself.
Dr. Helmut Koester comments: "Most of the persons named in this list are not simply personal friends of Paul in the church of Ephesus, but associates and co-workers. This is shown by the repeated references to their functions. The fact that such a large number of women appears in this list is clear and undeniable evidence for the unrestricted participation of women in the offices of the church in the Pauline congregations."
Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla, a woman, as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But still other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a simple "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."
Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) The Amplified Bible translates this passage as "They are men held in high esteem among the apostles."
Liberals would argue that the policies of Jesus and Paul in the area of gender equality are a higher standard than the oppression of women which is expressed in the Hebrew Scriptures and in some of the pseudonymous epistles. They believe that the present North American secular standard should be followed with respect to female ordination. They would prefer to abandon the restrictions on women that were implemented within Christendom, starting in the late 1st century CE.
Until the early years of the 20th century, very few Christian faith groups allowed women to be ordained. Since then, most of the liberal denominations have accepted female ministers and pastors. Mainline denominations followed. Very conservative denominations generally do not. The historical trend appears obvious - it may be just a matter of time before almost all denominations will remove their gender barrier, and finally match the rest of society.
Acts 9:36: Paul refers to a woman (Tabitha in Aramaic, Dorcas in Greek, Gazelle in English) as a disciple.
Acts 18:24-26 describes how Priscilla, a woman, and Aquila, her husband, both acted in the role of an official pastor to a man from Alexandria, called Apollos. Various translations of the Bible imply that they taught him in the synagogue (Amplified Bible, King James Version, Rheims, New American Standard, New American, New Revised Standard). However, the New International Version has an unusual translation of this passage. The NIV states that the teaching occurred in Priscilla's and Aquila's home.
Romans 16:1: This chapter is apparently unrelated to chapter 15 and to the rest of the book. It appears to be an independent note that has been attached to the epistle to the Romans. It starts with a letter of recommendation which introduces Phoebe to a group of people associated with the church at Corinth. Paul refers to her as a "deacon in the sense of a preacher, a minister, because Paul uses the same word for himself. He calls himself, in a number of instances, a deacon of the new covenant in 2 Corinthians." 4 It is often translated "deaconess" or "servant" or "helper" in English translations - perhaps in order to disguise her true status. The same Greek word appears in Ephesians 6:21 where it refers to a male and is normally translated "minister." It also appears in 2 Corinthians where Paul used the word to refer to himself.
Dr. Helmut Koester comments: "Most of the persons named in this list are not simply personal friends of Paul in the church of Ephesus, but associates and co-workers. This is shown by the repeated references to their functions. The fact that such a large number of women appears in this list is clear and undeniable evidence for the unrestricted participation of women in the offices of the church in the Pauline congregations."
Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla, a woman, as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But still other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a simple "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."
Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) The Amplified Bible translates this passage as "They are men held in high esteem among the apostles."
The Revised
Standard Version shows it as "they are men of note among the apostles."
The reference to them both being men does not appear in the original
Greek text. "Men" was simply inserted by the translators - we suspect
because the their minds recoiled from the concept of a female apostle.
Many
translations, including the Amplified Bible, Rheims New Testament, New
American Standard Bible, and the New International Version simply picked
the letter "s" out of thin air. They converted the original "Junia" (a
woman's name) into "Junias" (which they considered a man's name) in
order to erase all reference to a female apostle.
Junia
was first converted into a man only in the "13th century, when Aegidius
of Rome (1245-1316) referred to both Andronicus and Junia as "honorable
men."5 One source 4 refers to Hans Lietzmann who studied names used in
ancient times. He found no evidence that "Junias" was ever used as a
man's name. "Junias" might possibly have been used as a short form for
"Junianus," which did exist. But there are no references to it in
antiquity. It appears obvious that Junia was definitely an outstanding
female apostle, and that many Bible translators have been trying to
suppress this information.
1 Corinthians 1:11: Chloe is mentioned as the owner of a house where Christian meetings were held. There is some ambiguity as to whether the women actually led the house church or merely owned the building. Similar passages mention, with the same ambiguity:
The mother of Mark in Acts 12:12, and
Lydia in Acts 16:14-5, and 40, and
Nympha in Colossians 4:15.
1 Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)" Conservative Christians often quote this passage as proof that a husband should retain full authority over his wife in family matters. This concept of women being in an inferior power position might logically be extended to the church organization as well. Some liberal Christians note that the Greek word translated "head" is "kephale", which can be interpreted in two ways: "having authority over," or alternately "source" or "origin." Looking at verses 3 to 12, each interpretation looks equally valid. The former would support rejection of women in positions of authority; the latter would not.
1 Corinthians 11:7-9: "For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (NIV)
1 Corinthians 1:11: Chloe is mentioned as the owner of a house where Christian meetings were held. There is some ambiguity as to whether the women actually led the house church or merely owned the building. Similar passages mention, with the same ambiguity:
The mother of Mark in Acts 12:12, and
Lydia in Acts 16:14-5, and 40, and
Nympha in Colossians 4:15.
1 Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)" Conservative Christians often quote this passage as proof that a husband should retain full authority over his wife in family matters. This concept of women being in an inferior power position might logically be extended to the church organization as well. Some liberal Christians note that the Greek word translated "head" is "kephale", which can be interpreted in two ways: "having authority over," or alternately "source" or "origin." Looking at verses 3 to 12, each interpretation looks equally valid. The former would support rejection of women in positions of authority; the latter would not.
1 Corinthians 11:7-9: "For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (NIV)
Paul
is attempting to give an explanation why women should cover their hair
while in church. This passage is often quoted by conservative
theologians to justify the inferior position assigned to women and thus
deny them access to positions of power in churches. Liberals might point
out that this passage is largely ignored in practice; most women today
do not cover their hair during church services. Also, it does not appear
to say anything about female ordination.
1 Corinthians 14:34b-35: "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) There are many interpretations of this short passage:
Many conservative theologians accept this passage in its plain and literal meaning and interpret it as prohibiting all talking by women during services in every society, forever. This would of course prohibit a woman from accepting a position of pastor, minister or priest.
Bible scholar Hans Conzelmann concluded that this passage is a forgery*, inserted into St. Paul's original text by an unknown writer. (1) Thus, it cannot be regarded as the writing of Paul. The verses were not in the original version, and thus cannot be considered inerrant. He cites a number of reasons for this conclusion:
this passage contradicts Chapter 11:5 where women are described as taking an active role in church assemblies by praying and prophesying during services. Either the above passage or 11:5 must be invalid.
there are "peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought" in this passage which are not found in the rest of the Epistle
bullet the passage "spoils the flow of thought" and "interrupts the theme of prophesy." There is a discontinuity between verse 36 and 37. Verse 37 links up neatly with verse 33a.
If verses 34b to 36 are simply removed, then the chapter flows smoothly, as it was probably originally intended to do. The forgery* was rather crudely done.
Others point out that Paul would hardly cite the Torah (the Law) as justification for restricting roles of women; his entire ministry involved the exact opposite: he preached liberation from the Law.
1 Corinthians 14:34b-35: "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) There are many interpretations of this short passage:
Many conservative theologians accept this passage in its plain and literal meaning and interpret it as prohibiting all talking by women during services in every society, forever. This would of course prohibit a woman from accepting a position of pastor, minister or priest.
Bible scholar Hans Conzelmann concluded that this passage is a forgery*, inserted into St. Paul's original text by an unknown writer. (1) Thus, it cannot be regarded as the writing of Paul. The verses were not in the original version, and thus cannot be considered inerrant. He cites a number of reasons for this conclusion:
this passage contradicts Chapter 11:5 where women are described as taking an active role in church assemblies by praying and prophesying during services. Either the above passage or 11:5 must be invalid.
there are "peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought" in this passage which are not found in the rest of the Epistle
bullet the passage "spoils the flow of thought" and "interrupts the theme of prophesy." There is a discontinuity between verse 36 and 37. Verse 37 links up neatly with verse 33a.
If verses 34b to 36 are simply removed, then the chapter flows smoothly, as it was probably originally intended to do. The forgery* was rather crudely done.
Others point out that Paul would hardly cite the Torah (the Law) as justification for restricting roles of women; his entire ministry involved the exact opposite: he preached liberation from the Law.
Some
Biblical scholars say that Paul is here describing divisive practices
being promoted by the Jewish Christians in Corinth - those who believed
in Jesus as Lord while still following the Torah. They were generating
discord by teaching that "As in the synagogues, women should remain
silent.....as the Torah says."
That is, they wanted to
translate synagogue practice, as defined by the Torah, into the
Christian assemblies. Women were not allowed to speak in synagogues, so
they should not be allowed to speak in Christian assemblies. Paul
follows up this passage with verse 15 which severely criticizes the
Jewish Christians for this position by asking "Did the word of God
originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" From
this interpretation, restriction on women, as taught by the Torah,
should be rejected; men and women should be treated equally with respect
to their behavior and roles in church.
Still others point out that the purpose of 1 Corinthians was to answer a number of questions raised by the Church at Corinth. Paul's style was to write a brief quotation supplied by a Corinthian Christian, and then respond to it. Verses 3:1, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, 8:1 are some examples.
Following this same pattern, Verse 14:33b to 14:35 is not a comment by Paul. Rather it may be a question raised by a Corinthian who objected to women speaking in church.
The church member may have asked: "As in all of the synagogues of the holy ones, women should remain silent in the synagogues. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission, as the Torah says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the synagogue."
Paul would then have responded with an attack in Verses 36 - 38, and concludes the chapter with Verse 39, an instruction from the Lord to his "brothers and sisters" to be eager to prophesy, but in a fitting and orderly way. All that is required to come up with this translation is to rearrange the original Greek slightly. Ancient Greek was written without punctuation marks, divisions into sentences or spaces between words. This leads to a single passage having many different interpretations.
Others speculate that St. Paul is restricting the roles of women, but referring to:
a temporary problem of a local nature at the church at Corinth
women chattering during services
women interrupting services with emotional outbursts
women speaking about certain specific items in church
Still others regard the passage as an indicator of St. Paul's poor regard for women, which originated in his Greek and Jewish background and was not overcome by his religious conversion to Christianity.
Still others point out that the purpose of 1 Corinthians was to answer a number of questions raised by the Church at Corinth. Paul's style was to write a brief quotation supplied by a Corinthian Christian, and then respond to it. Verses 3:1, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, 8:1 are some examples.
Following this same pattern, Verse 14:33b to 14:35 is not a comment by Paul. Rather it may be a question raised by a Corinthian who objected to women speaking in church.
The church member may have asked: "As in all of the synagogues of the holy ones, women should remain silent in the synagogues. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission, as the Torah says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the synagogue."
Paul would then have responded with an attack in Verses 36 - 38, and concludes the chapter with Verse 39, an instruction from the Lord to his "brothers and sisters" to be eager to prophesy, but in a fitting and orderly way. All that is required to come up with this translation is to rearrange the original Greek slightly. Ancient Greek was written without punctuation marks, divisions into sentences or spaces between words. This leads to a single passage having many different interpretations.
Others speculate that St. Paul is restricting the roles of women, but referring to:
a temporary problem of a local nature at the church at Corinth
women chattering during services
women interrupting services with emotional outbursts
women speaking about certain specific items in church
Still others regard the passage as an indicator of St. Paul's poor regard for women, which originated in his Greek and Jewish background and was not overcome by his religious conversion to Christianity.
That
is, it was an expression of his personal beliefs and can be safely
overlooked in the present day. Just as we have learned to ignore
Biblical passages regarding slavery, passages concerning women covering
their hair in church, passages prohibiting certain types of jewelry, we
should learn to recognize the evil of Paul's sexism and recognize that
this passage should be disregarded.
1 Corinthians 16:3: Paul refers to two, a married couple: Priscilla and her husband Aquila as his fellow workers in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (NIV) This is perhaps the most famous passage in the New Testament that assigns equal status to individuals of both genders (and all races, nationalities and slave status). Some religious conservatives believe that this equality refers only to salvation and not to status.
Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelists, spreading the gospel.
This study could go on, but you get the point.
Women are living souls with minds and hearts and spirits just the same as men. No one is self generated. No one can minister outside of God's anointing upon their life. A male apostle relys upon God for his anointing. A woman can and does rely upon God for her anointing!
The idea that women are less then men is ridiculous! It is only the container that we are in that determines our sex. Paul refers to this container as a "tent." Our human body is only a "space~suit" that allows us to function on this earthly plane. Its sexual orientation has nothing to do what~so~ever with our living soul that Christ died for.
http://joyfullife.cccm.com/about.html
http://www.carm.org/women-in-ministry
Angels
Naked Babies With Wings? I Think Not.
Little childlike naked babies with bows and arrows flying around with wings on their backs? Or perhaps misty foggy apparitions of beings that are not clearly seen, just hinted at. None of these. Angels are just like us humans in appearance only they are spirit beings. Those to whom they are sent can see them. And at times they can't be seen by others around them, but they are there just the same.
Let's search out the texts of the Biblical Scriptures and allow the words to paint a picture of those spirit beings known to most as "angels." Is the image conjured up by this word in your mind the same as that portrayed in the words of the text of the Scriptures?
One of the first appearances of these "men" occurs in a meeting between Abraham and three very important people in Genesis 18:
Genesis 18:1-8
Genesis 181And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetch a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Here we see Abraham displaying typical eastern hospitality. When he saw the three men he constrained them to wash their feet and take food and drink. Then, in keeping with the eastern culture, he served them and waited upon them but did not eat with them. But the most amazing aspect of this record is that the three men he spoke with and provided for were no less than the Lord Himself and two of His top aides.
These three individuals are described as "men." Furthermore, they sat down in the shade, washed their feet, and then enjoyed a good meal of veal with bread and butter and washed the whole lot down with fresh milk! We can assume that these men wore clothes and appeared, more or less, as normal people.
The lesson from this is that the Lord resembles a man. Or, looked at the other way around, men resemble the Lord. Remember in Genesis 1:26 during the creation we read: "Let us make man in our image: after our likeness." This informs us that our "image" and our "likeness" is fashioned after this person called Elohim, and more often referred to as Yahweh or Jehovah in the Hebrew tongue."
Many believe that God, being a spirit, does not have form. But, just as the angels are referred to as "ministering spirits," they are always called "men" and appear as "men."
In This passage, the Hebrew word for Lord is Jehovah; and, in the course of the chapter, Jehovah (Lord) appears no less than 12 times. So one of the men Abraham entertained and then had a discussion with was no less than Jehovah Himself, the Master Creator Almighty God.
After the three had finished their meal, they continued on their journey towards Sodom. Abraham had a rather feisty debate with the Lord and endeavoured to make a bargain with Him. However, the other two men journeyed on alone. We learn from the ensuing passage:
Genesis 19:1-5
Genesis 191And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Once again we see from this record that these two "messengers" were mistaken for ordinary men. Firstly, Lot sees them and offers his hospitality to them. They at first refuse before accepting his invitation to food and a bed. These men, although spirit beings who abide not on this Earth, obviously have good appetites, for they enjoyed a hearty meal for the second time that day.
The entrance of these men into Lot's house is not lost on the rest of the inhabitants of Sodom, for they all gather around Lot's abode and insist on meeting the two men so that they might "know" them. This tells us that these two angels, apart from appearing as men, must have been extremely attractive individuals in order to have caught the attention of virtually everyone in the town!
We are told in other places throughout the Old Testament that these "men" or "messengers" are created spirit beings. We are also informed that they existed far beyond the creation of this present world as we know it.
Concerning "angels" in Psalm 148:5, we read:
Let them praise the name of the Lord.
For He commanded, and they were created.
And in Psalm 104:4 we are told:
Who maketh His angels spirits:
His ministers a flaming fire.
In Job, Yaweh is debating the creation of the world and says, concerning angels:
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Book of Job 38:7
The "sons of God" are angels which are created spirit beings. But as we have seen, they can appear as men and look and eat and drink and talk just like human beings. To emphasise that these spirit messengers, or agents, are men, I would like to present a few more brief records. From the Book of Daniel, the names of two of the leading entities in Yaweh's host are provided:
Daniel 9:21-22 (King James Version)
21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
We learn from this passage that these agents have names and can fly, i.e. move very fast. Being spirit, they are not restricted to the laws of physics as we are. We see that this messenger's name is Gabriel. His main duty is to deliver messages, as he does in many places, especially in the New Testament. He is accompanied by another messenger whose name is Michael. His job seems to be the security aspect of the mission, as we see from this next extract:
Daniel 10:4-6; 11-13
4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;
5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
This man, who is still Gabriel, appears here not quite in ordinary clothes but in some beautiful raiment. Again he reiterates that he has been "sent" to inform Daniel regarding events which are to take place in the latter days. But then something unusual occurs. He tells Daniel that, while en route, he was impeded in his journey by a "prince of Persia," who held him up for 21 days. Apparently this prince of Persia is another spirit being, but an evil one. For Michael, the military aide, had to come to the assistance of Gabriel and remove this other evil agent so that Gabriel could accomplish his mission.
This provides some interesting insight into the realm of the spirit world. Again, Gabriel is a man sent on a mission to deliver information to another man, Daniel. He is ambushed by an obviously powerful evil angel named the "prince of Persia." Yet another celestial being, a military man by the name of Michael, comes to the rescue and clears the way for Gabriel to continue on and deliver his message.
All the personalities involved in this saga are men. Not human, flesh-and-blood men as we are. But spirit beings. Men of a different nature to us but men nevertheless. Because they are spirit beings they can travel faster than the speed of light and commute between Earth and wherever their celestial abode is.
Now we move forward to the time of the Gospels and briefly look at some of the appearance of these men in the days of the Messiah and afterwards.
In the first chapter of St. Luke's Gospel we are given the story of the birth of John the Baptist to his heretofore barren mother, Elizabeth, and her priest husband , Zacharias. While he carried out his priestly duties one day, an angel (Greek: aggelos: "messenger" or "sent one") appeared to him:
Luke 1:8,11,198And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,11And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.19And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Later on in this same chapter this same man, Gabriel appears to Mary and informs her that she will shortly give birth to the Messiah. Mary was probably only a young girl between 14 and 18 years of age at the time. But what she saw and what Zacharias saw was a man who then proceeded to have a conversation with them just as he had done with Daniel in the earlier account.
We now move forward 33 years or so to the time of the death of the Messiah. Some of the women returned to the tomb where His body had been lain in order to embalm it.
Luke 24:1,2,41Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments.
These two beings entered into a discussion with this group who had come to embalm the body of the Messiah. In all of the other Gospels we find a similaraccount. People arrive at the tomb to find it empty, but meet two men in white clothing who divulge certain information to them. Again jumping ahead a few more years into the century AD, to the account of the movements of the original followers of the Messiah, who were then labelled "Christians," there are numerous accounts of these spirit-men appearing to the disciples in order to give direction or help them out of difficult situations. Always these messengers are described as men.
Conclusion:
Throughout the entire text of both the Old and New Testaments there are almost 300 mentions of these celestial beings. Always they are described as men. Sometimes they are mistakenly treated as ordinary human beings. These men ate and drank on occasion and usually were clothed in white shining raiment. Some of the time they appear in twos. Gabriel is the one who is sent to deliver messages and he is usually accompanied by another being who is named in some instances Michael. It would appear that this latter gentleman is sent along as security for Gabriel. What we might refer to as "muscle." We are also told that these entities existed long before the world, as we know it, came into being. They are created spirit~men as opposed to human beings.
So do the Scriptures describe another world wherein exists a different form of life, possibly superior in intelligence and power to that of our world? Yes indeed. These are men who look like us and their abode is a place called "Heaven," which seems to be some considerable distance from our planet. Are they benevolent towards mankind and interested in helping us in our times of trial? The answer is yes. So the leader of this celestial group is well~disposed towards mankind? Yes. His name is Yaweh, although sometimes He is called Elohim, and He definitely seems to want to help mankind.
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.Book of Hebrews 13:2
Why do most places where God is manifesting Himself only last around ten years?
6/28/2013
I want to keep with this topic that ties in with the post below this one. I will do my best to explain my comprehension and understanding that I have acquired over my many years of observation.
And as always this is only a mere glimpse of this exhaustive topic that I favor as being a primary topic.
In my own Christian experience I have seen various home "Bible studies" and Churches come and go over the years. Some of them shot up in numbers of people attending them faster then others.
If the Holy Spirit is manifested in anyone of them people hear about it and will want to attend. The general pattern is God shows up and the people hear about it and the fellowship or Church starts growing.
Lonnie Frisbee used to say, "Get under the spout where the glory comes out!"
They will last for around ten years or so. Then something happens and the Holy Spirit is no longer manifesting His presence like He did at first.
Why?
I recall a conversation that I had with Romain, the assistant pastor of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, in 1973. During the course of the conversation he told me a story.
He said that a man had gone to heaven and was greeted by Peter at the pearly gates. Peter started to give him a tour of heaven. As they came to an area with a wall Peter started to talk softer in almost a whisper. The man asked him why he was whispering. Peter replied, "On the other side of this wall there are Calvary Chapel people, they think that they are the only ones here, I don't want to ruin it for them."
I got Romain's point.
When God is manifesting His presence in our midst we can get an attitude that somehow we are uniquely special and perhaps better then other Churches or fellowships etc. An attitude of elitism can set in. We can start thinking how right on we are and how off others are when compared to us.
I want to keep with this topic that ties in with the post below this one. I will do my best to explain my comprehension and understanding that I have acquired over my many years of observation.
And as always this is only a mere glimpse of this exhaustive topic that I favor as being a primary topic.
In my own Christian experience I have seen various home "Bible studies" and Churches come and go over the years. Some of them shot up in numbers of people attending them faster then others.
If the Holy Spirit is manifested in anyone of them people hear about it and will want to attend. The general pattern is God shows up and the people hear about it and the fellowship or Church starts growing.
Lonnie Frisbee used to say, "Get under the spout where the glory comes out!"
They will last for around ten years or so. Then something happens and the Holy Spirit is no longer manifesting His presence like He did at first.
Why?
I recall a conversation that I had with Romain, the assistant pastor of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, in 1973. During the course of the conversation he told me a story.
He said that a man had gone to heaven and was greeted by Peter at the pearly gates. Peter started to give him a tour of heaven. As they came to an area with a wall Peter started to talk softer in almost a whisper. The man asked him why he was whispering. Peter replied, "On the other side of this wall there are Calvary Chapel people, they think that they are the only ones here, I don't want to ruin it for them."
I got Romain's point.
When God is manifesting His presence in our midst we can get an attitude that somehow we are uniquely special and perhaps better then other Churches or fellowships etc. An attitude of elitism can set in. We can start thinking how right on we are and how off others are when compared to us.
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
James 4:6 –
“God resists (stands against, opposes, hinders) the proud (arrogant,
“God resists (stands against, opposes, hinders) the proud (arrogant,
smug), but gives grace (help, aid, assistance, ability) to the humble.”
1 Peter 5:5-6
Likewise,
ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be
subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth
the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Where did pride originate?
Isaiah 14:12-17 – Pride originated with Lucifer, the devil. Five times he said, “I
will.”
The solution for pride.
Matthew 18:1-4 –
The disciples asked Jesus who would be greatest in the kingdom of
The disciples asked Jesus who would be greatest in the kingdom of
heaven.
He called a child to Himself and said, “Whoever humbles himself as this
little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”
I have never seen a child filled with pride. I have never seen a child projecting prideful looks and attitude.
Nothing quenches the Holy Spirit like pride.
God will leave and step over you to manifest elsewhere.
Ever notice how the old work of God will always oppose the new work of God. When Shekinah Fellowship started the old place where God was noted to be manifesting spoke against it from their pulpit. I know because I was there and heard it with my own ears.
God will always move on when pride sets in.
When the Vineyard Association of Churches started in the early 80's the old work of God resisted them. This is the typical pattern that I have witnessed over the years.
The point of this post is that if you want God to continue to manifest His presence in your midst you have to watch yourself and keep from getting proud and thinking that somehow your better and greater then others.
Another thing that will abolish a growing fellowship or Church is teaching bad doctrine or false teachings. I know places where this has happened. The people of God read their Bibles and get instruction from the radio and TV as well as from their place of worship. Most of them have discernment and can sense or tell when something is off. They will leave and not come back.
John 10:27
John 12:21
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
I have a good friend who recently killed off his own fellowship with false teaching. His growing fellowship reversed and shrunk when he brought in false teaching. He had been roped in by a false teacher of last days things and started to parrot those teachings and the sheep left his growing fellowship when he did this.
I can only hope that he wakes up and pays attention to this.
The sheep follow Jesus Christ and another they will not follow. My friend's congregation fled! It is always like this for God's sheep.
But there are those who will ignore the inner voice of discernment and continue off in error to their own destruction.
The sheep follow Jesus Christ and another they will not follow. My friend's congregation fled! It is always like this for God's sheep.
But there are those who will ignore the inner voice of discernment and continue off in error to their own destruction.
If you want your fellowship to continue to grow, stick to the Bible and stay away from speculation. Keep the people from pride, teach them that it is God's grace that He is manifested in their midst and not because of anything that they are or do.
Fellowships and Churches will continue to grow and die. It is a pattern that repeats over and over again. Just look at how many fellowships and Churches pepper the land. They come and go over the years...
To keep from ending up on the junk heap, teach the Word of God, not speculation. Teach your people about the grace of God. Give them Jesus Christ!
John 12:21
The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
It is not you or any other man that they want to see!
They want Jesus Christ.
While we are still alive on this earth we are to lift up Jesus Christ to others.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
While at face value of context this verse of scripture primarily refers to the cross of Christ. But there are always streams of meaning behind scriptures.
The stream or principle I want to bring up is that when we here on the earth will lift up Jesus Christ before others, He will draw humankind to Himself. If you are not presenting Jesus Christ, the sheep will leave and go where He is being presented and lifted up. I will venture to guess that my good friend was not lifting up Jesus Christ and his sheep left.
Hebrews 12:2
Don't make the same mistake, give the people Jesus Christ, lift up Jesus Christ before them. They want Jesus Christ and Him alone for He is worthy!
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy
that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is
set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Train the focus of your sheep upon Jesus Christ, He is who they want.
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a
standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, he will live."
Here is a type of this focus on Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Moses is instructed to make a serpent and put it up on a pole for all to see. Anyone who had been bitten by the poisonous snakes was instructed to look up at the snake Moses had made and they would be healed. those who did not look up to the snake died of the snake bite.
This is a type of Jesus Christ being lifted up before the people. See what happens when the people focused on the type of Jesus Christ?
The people were complaining because of lack of bread and water, when the plague of fiery serpents came upon them. Their focus was not on Almighty God. The solution was to look to God, Jesus Christ.
The point I want you to see is no matter what is wrong in your Churches or Fellowships can be repaired by focusing the people upon Jesus Christ. Lift Jesus Christ up before the people.
And Jesus Christ will draw everyone unto Himself.
A very simple equation, so simple even a child can understand it. Violate the equation and your sheep will go elsewhere.
My friend violated the equation to his own hurt...
Don't make the same mistake, give the people Jesus Christ, lift up Jesus Christ before them. They want Jesus Christ and Him alone for He is worthy!
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were
created.
Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation;
Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
David Sloane
Wednesday, June 26, 2013
Finesse Delicato = Spiritus Adepto
Sir I said Do Not Move While We are In Motion
It is a very delicate activity
It has been said that a meeting where the gifts of the Holy Spirit are allowed to be freely exercised is a balancing act.
Think
of it as if a circle of people are carefully passing around a tray with
glasses of water upon it. They are trying very carefully not to spill
the water as they pass the tray from one to another.
One
speaks out in tongues, another gives an interpretation, while another
sings out in an inspirational spiritual song. Another gives a word of
knowledge while another gives a prophecy in song.
This
is what it is like. Each and every member of the meeting being
sensitive to the Holy Spirit's direction and orchestration. The meeting
moves forward and accomplishes God's goals when it is conducted decently
and in order. Things run along smoothly with no crash and burns.
I have been in large meetings where everyone was singing in the Spirit (singing in tongues) altogether at the same time. When suddenly, without anyone other than the Holy Spirit giving direction, everyone stops singing except for one person.
Then just as suddenly someone else joins them in a sort of a duet. And then the whole room full of people gently joins in a chorus.
And then an absolutely amazing thing would take place. I would hear gentle rain pouring upon the roof when it is a very dry evening with no rain outside, and yet rain could actually be heard coming down on the roof.
Angelic voices could be faintly heard singing a counter part harmony along with the whole congregation. And finally every voice would go silent as if a conductor had given a hand signal to taper off to silence.
I have been in large meetings where everyone was singing in the Spirit (singing in tongues) altogether at the same time. When suddenly, without anyone other than the Holy Spirit giving direction, everyone stops singing except for one person.
Then just as suddenly someone else joins them in a sort of a duet. And then the whole room full of people gently joins in a chorus.
And then an absolutely amazing thing would take place. I would hear gentle rain pouring upon the roof when it is a very dry evening with no rain outside, and yet rain could actually be heard coming down on the roof.
Angelic voices could be faintly heard singing a counter part harmony along with the whole congregation. And finally every voice would go silent as if a conductor had given a hand signal to taper off to silence.
It was at this point
that there would be manifested the most powerful spiritual atmosphere
where you felt as if you should be taking off your shoes because it was
Holy ground that you were standing upon.
The "weight" of the Holy Spirit was manifested and a sacred atmosphere of deep reverence was upon the people present.
The "weight" of the Holy Spirit was manifested and a sacred atmosphere of deep reverence was upon the people present.
There
is a church experience beyond just stimulation of the intellect with Bible
study. There is a church dimension that few ever get the opportunity to
experience in their own church. True heart felt worship with Christians who are not afraid
of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and know what balance is as they exercise the usage of those gifts.
I have had the wonderful pleasure of being in meetings like this.
And...sigh...
I
have been in carnal meetings masquerading as spiritual meetings, when
in reality flesh was at work pretending that the Holy Spirit was moving
in their midst. Nothing quenches the Holy Spirit faster then flesh
acting as if He were
behind their carnal antics.
It is truly disgusting when this happens. And it happens a lot these days.
behind their carnal antics.
It is truly disgusting when this happens. And it happens a lot these days.
Reverence
dictates that we be sensitive and truly worshipful to insure balance
for forward momentum or we will get nowhere...few make it through the
straight and narrow.
pastor David Sloane
12,03,08
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
wanted to add some thoughts that I had while working today, 12,04,08.
Over so many years I have noticed that teachers of the Word always like
to down play and marginalize those of us who love the moving of the Holy
Spirit.
Just today my son mentioned hearing John Courson
saying on the radio something about not validating those of us who
desire the Spirit's moving. He said that if we just stay in the Word
that would be enough Spirit moving for us.
I beg to differ. Why?
I
had this conversation about this topic out in the parking lot of
Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in 1973 with the then assistant pastor Lavern
Romaine. Romaine told me that there has to be 'balance.' His very words
to me on this topic were, "David, too much of the Word and we will dry
up, too much of the Spirit and we will blow up, correct balance of both
and we grow up."
I never forgot that
conversation with him. I have noted over the years that churches that
marginalize any operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit while lifting
the Word of God high over everything else, (almost to the point of 'Bibliolatry,') can become somewhat dry in a sense for me personally.
Ok, so you never heard the term Bibliolatry.
Years ago all of us who would go out to the desert to seek the Lord
came up with this term on our own. Today it is in common usage. Bibliolatry is the worship of the Bible or any other text.
On the other hand...
On the other hand...
I
have been in churches that minimize the teaching of the Word of God and
maximize the exercise of the gifts. Man what a mess! People looking
like Funky chickens doing that bouncing up and down thing and others
shaking their hands and others shouting.
I have spiritual discernment and in some of those places the Holy Spirit wasn't moving at all, but they did their thing any way while insisting that the Holy Spirit was doing those strange things and goings on. Not!
I have spiritual discernment and in some of those places the Holy Spirit wasn't moving at all, but they did their thing any way while insisting that the Holy Spirit was doing those strange things and goings on. Not!
When
a church teaches the Word of God in it's entirety and allows the
exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, there can be such a sweet
manifested presence of God. The sheep need inspiration as well as education. An amazing amount of pastors don't get this. They don't have a clue.
1 Corinthians 14:4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
The
sheep need to be edified. Above we see two ways this can be
accomplished. One is by speaking in tongues. The other is by being
exposed to prophecy. There are many other ways.
When was the last time that you spoke in tongues? When was the last time that you heard someone prophecy?
Apostle Paul understood this all too well:
1 Timothy 4:14Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Prophecy is declaring the mind and heart of God. It is making known God's will. The laying on of hands is the impartation
of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Some would teach today that such things have ceased since we now have the written Word of God. They are in serious error and are teaching others to be impotent and powerless as witnesses for Jesus Christ by their false concepts.
Some would teach today that such things have ceased since we now have the written Word of God. They are in serious error and are teaching others to be impotent and powerless as witnesses for Jesus Christ by their false concepts.
2 Peter 1:19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
They quote the above verse as if it declairs the cessation of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus
Christ would have stayed upon the earth and lived out the full extent
of His natural life if this were true. But He had to leave this earth so
that the Holy Spirit could come. Apparently for some reason, unknown to
us at this time, only one person of the trinity can be in resident here
on earth at one time.
Although we see all of them present at the immersion of Jesus by John the immerser.
Luke 3:22And
the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a
voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I
am well pleased.
We see the Holy Spirit descending and the Father declairing
and Jesus the Son in the above verse. The Holy Trinity. With in the one
Godhead there are three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a force or an energy or an essence, He is a person.
We want this person of the Holy Spirit in our midst. Why?
Because
it is He who manifest the presence of Almighty God to us. And anyone
who has ever truly been in a service where the Holy Spirit comes and
manifest Almighty God, never ever forgets that experience, never!
Once
you taste of the 'real' of God you can never be satisfied with less
then that. You search and search, looking for that church that 'gets
it.' But you never can seem to find it. You leave disappointed until eventual you give up.
Satan
steps in and tries his best to convince you that it was all a dream. He
gets you to chalk it up to your youthful exuberance or just an
emotional period of your life.
No! It was a genuine manifestation of Almighty God that you were ever so blessed to have experienced.
Years
and years of Bible study can never do for you what just one simple
touch of the Holy Spirit can do for you. It can change your life for the
rest of your days.
The mind listening to teaching is important, but the human spirit being touched by the Holy Spirit is just as important.
John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Worship Him in your spirit!
The mind.
Ephesians 4:23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Feed your mind on the Word of God.
Ephesians 5:26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Titus 3:5Not
by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his
mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the
Holy Ghost;
Washing of regeneration?
In
biology, an organism is said to regenerate a lost or damaged part if
the part regrows so that the original function is restored. Restoration.
Renewing
of the Holy Spirit. We need this experience that comes of the Holy
Spirit. Therefore I desire the moving of the Holy Spirit!
David
Today's Word
Listless Passivity
When hope is gone, both life and death seem to have no meaning. As the saying goes, “You haven’t begun to live until you’ve lost it all.” In Christ, we must die to live. When it all slips away and there’s nothing left to hold us down, God steps in and lifts us up. He changes everything.
Thus saith the LORD, “Behold I do a new thing.”
Set Your affections on things above, and by all means, minimize your involvement with this world. Come out from it as much as is humanly possible, trusting that the Lord himself will bring you the rest of the way. Scale down and travel light. These are the last days and we must redeem the time. The day is approaching when we will give account for our lives. How did we spend it.
Buried in debt is no way to live. Jesus said “He who the Son sets free, is free indeed.” What can this world possibly have to offer compared to the peace that can only be found in Jesus Christ. To the church I wonder, where is your heart? To the world, I already know where their heart is at, but unfortunately the church has become much like the world.
The Bible says to “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (1 John 2:15). “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:21).
The Holy Spirit is calling out to Christians everywhere, in all the earth, to deny themselves, take up the cross, and follow Jesus. It may be that for some, their cross to bear is to generate wealth for the kingdom of God. Your business, your investments and all that you have are for the glory of God. At every level, rich or poor, God is calling each of us to be an important part of His last call.
Some Christians are selling everything while other Christians are buying and multiplying material things. We are all a part of what God is doing when we do all that we do unto Him. God blesses us to multiply the things we have so He can multiply for others the things we give. He supplies the seed, but we must sow the seed in order to reap. The more we give, the more God gives us to give.
When Jesus fed the five thousand, He didn’t create, He multiplied. He took existing materials and by the grace of God expanded them to make enough for everyone. It was a shared blessing because someone among them was willing to share what they had, even though it was not enough to go around. They could have had the attitude ‘I can’t save the world’ and kept what they had for themselves but they didn’t, they gave the Lord something to work with and there was plenty.
The prosperity message is absolutely true when it is in your heart to prosper others. The problem with the prosperity message comes in when we allow our brothers and sisters in Christ to go without while storing up for ourselves. The love of money is a carnal motivation that God will never bless. He may allow it, but in the end it’s not worth it. “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul” (Mark 8:36).
Pastor Tilson Shumate
Evangelistic Missionary
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